|
|
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on May 15, 2011 9:17:34 GMT -5
Relatives and Friends, These are my personal notes taken at the Wolfchild hearing in Washington D.C., on May 13, 2011. I regret I could not hear the lead government lawyer. I am optimistic about the upcoming summary judgement. Not to be copied without my written permission. MIKE Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on May 16, 2011 19:34:30 GMT -5
I realize it is hard to take everything down in a hearing, that's what court reporters/stenographers are for.
I read the notes, it sounds like the government lawyer wasn't as prepared as should have been. I think an administrator for Judge Lettow should have not been one of the present Attorneys to be fair about the process.
|
|
|
|
Post by tamara on May 16, 2011 23:10:38 GMT -5
Hmmm it was my understanding that the Judge did not say that the Scouts were "out"...or at least thats what Im now told. Its hard to take notes in a hearing especially when one person is inaudible. Much appreciation for sharing the details...Pidam
|
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on May 17, 2011 0:26:07 GMT -5
Hmmm it was my understanding that the Judge did not say that the Scouts were "out"...or at least thats what Im now told. Its hard to take notes in a hearing especially when one person is inaudible. Much appreciation for sharing the details...Pidam ------------------------------ JL: Was the sale a legal sale?
WB: Talks at length about the reservation tries to slide out of it with the move to Nebraska. The allotments of 1869, Indian Homesteading Act. Just a possibility of Land.
JL: You are saying, there is no claim based on the 1863 act. The problem of trying to use the land allotments on the Santee Reservation to fit in this situation is that those Indians did not relinquish their Tribal status.
The Indian Scouts will not qualify.
People may overlap to become eligible.
Talked about the “Bear” case in Nebraska.------------------------------ According to the notes taken, was the Judge speaking out loud by the words in the notes as, "The Indian Scouts will not qualify"? or what? |
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on May 22, 2011 11:25:11 GMT -5
Can anyone reply? Is it the way the notes were taken or did Attorney Kaardal take up alot of the speaking time in the May 13, 2011 hearing?
Was there allotted times for each Attorney or was it first come first served at the hearing?
Please don't be afraid to respond as others want to know too.
Thanks
|
|
Kaa
New Member
Posts: 8
|
Post by Kaa on May 22, 2011 20:11:25 GMT -5
So in other words we won't hear anything about the case until it is posted? Did the scouts get approved or not?
|
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on May 22, 2011 20:36:08 GMT -5
So in other words we won't hear anything about the case until it is posted? Did the scouts get approved or not? ----------------------------- KaaI am guessing , but I do not think the Scouts were excluded. Since the notetaker/reporter Kitto is not elaborating on his notes, I think those notes are slightly written with a Kaardal emphasis. Judge Lettow will have to come out with his decision regarding that May 13, 2011 hearing. I think the Judge mentioned the court not wanting to do the genealogy determinations because of the cost, but the Judge mentioned if there is a BIA Area Office in Minneapolis, MN. It would be nice to have the whole hearing transcription of what was actually said at the hearing. |
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on May 23, 2011 23:01:05 GMT -5
Hmmm it was my understanding that the Judge did not say that the Scouts were "out"...or at least thats what Im now told. Its hard to take notes in a hearing especially when one person is inaudible. Much appreciation for sharing the details...Pidam ------------------------------ JL: Was the sale a legal sale?
WB: Talks at length about the reservation tries to slide out of it with the move to Nebraska. The allotments of 1869, Indian Homesteading Act. Just a possibility of Land.
JL: You are saying, there is no claim based on the 1863 act. The problem of trying to use the land allotments on the Santee Reservation to fit in this situation is that those Indians did not relinquish their Tribal status.
The Indian Scouts will not qualify.
People may overlap to become eligible.
Talked about the “Bear” case in Nebraska.------------------------------ According to the notes taken, was the Judge speaking out loud by the words in the notes as, "The Indian Scouts will not qualify"? or what? ---------------------- A further update for everyone. According to some at the May 13 hearing, Judge Lettow did not say that the Scouts did not qualify. That was only in these Kitto notes, and the Kitto notes are wrong in that regard. Who said the Scouts did not qualify was the female government attorney.
Thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on May 25, 2011 5:58:48 GMT -5
Group A is now separated from Group B, too. You wish to guess who is in Group B? The Whispering Blonde has always said that no one is eligible.
|
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on May 27, 2011 13:10:04 GMT -5
------------------------------ JL: Was the sale a legal sale?
WB: Talks at length about the reservation tries to slide out of it with the move to Nebraska. The allotments of 1869, Indian Homesteading Act. Just a possibility of Land.
JL: You are saying, there is no claim based on the 1863 act. The problem of trying to use the land allotments on the Santee Reservation to fit in this situation is that those Indians did not relinquish their Tribal status.
The Indian Scouts will not qualify.
People may overlap to become eligible.
Talked about the “Bear” case in Nebraska.------------------------------ According to the notes taken, was the Judge speaking out loud by the words in the notes as, "The Indian Scouts will not qualify"? or what? ---------------------- A further update for everyone. According to some at the May 13 hearing, Judge Lettow did not say that the Scouts did not qualify. That was only in these Kitto notes, and the Kitto notes are wrong in that regard. Who said the Scouts did not qualify was the female government attorney.
Thanks.-------------------------- Many of the Plaintiffs/Intervenors may qualify through a variety of lists as well as the 1886/1889 lists. No one has been approved through genealogical data by the Court. That will happen once the Court comes up with the eligibility parameters and makes its decisions on those descendants that qualify in this case. |
|
|
|
Post by mdenney on Jun 17, 2011 21:04:53 GMT -5
so now comes the process of being approved like the USDA does to cattle...lol jk. so be it. remember this if you have a u# then u win.
|
|
|
|
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on Jun 23, 2011 22:12:13 GMT -5
Here is the anomaly in AtrocityMN's argument: He was not present at the hearing, yet he makes assertions as if he was there. The case is now about Individual Dakota's saving White people. It is a solid fact that the Scouts hunted and killed their relatives. That is enough to keep them out. Remember, Judge Lettow has not made a decision yet, but he will and soon. CMK
|
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on Jun 24, 2011 9:08:16 GMT -5
Here is the anomaly in AtrocityMN's argument: He was not present at the hearing, yet he makes assertions as if he was there. The case is now about Individual Dakota's saving White people. It is a solid fact that the Scouts hunted and killed their relatives. That is enough to keep them out. Remember, Judge Lettow has not made a decision yet, but he will and soon. CMK If you look at the historical background of the Indian Scouts, all were not identified as hostiles during the Minnesota War, and all were not in agreement with the war against the U.S. The families that were the friendly Indians held by the hostiles, were ultimately released at Camp Release. It was these friendly Indians that helped save whites from being killed during the 1862 Minnesota Outbreak. It was these friendly Indians to the whites that became Indian Scouts in the U.S. Army. Not all Indians claiming descendency from the 1886 and 1889 censuses were friendly Indians to the whites in Minnesota. The atmosphere in Minnesota was becoming hectic with the onslaught of white settlers to the area, Indians relied on the Treaties with the U.S. government, which ultimately were breached by the February 16, 1863 Act with the annulment and abrogation of all Treaties heretofore signed with the four bands of Santees in Minnesota. The U.S. violated those Treaty rights of all the Minnesota Indians who had not violated the terms of said Treaties prior to the February 16, 1863 Act. It is through those U.S. violations of Treaty rights that the four bands of Santees find themselves in court today. |
|
|
|
Post by BIG JON on Jun 24, 2011 13:01:38 GMT -5
The case is now about Individual Dakota's saving White people. It is a solid fact that the Scouts hunted and killed their relatives. That is enough to keep them out. The scouts 'hunted their people' as you so eloquently put it, because it was forced upon them. They may have volunteered to be scouts, but they were expected to follow orders. What does scouts killing their relatives have to do with Dakota saving white people? Why would this exclude the scouts? Does this statement make any sense? Mike, Would you please elaborate. Please reply, Jon The Whispering Blonde has always said that no one is eligible???(somebody had to ask.) |
|
|
|
Post by BIG JON on Jun 24, 2011 13:22:35 GMT -5
The Scouts are a group. The people are individuals. The Scouts will not be accepted as a group. This case pivots upon individual accomplishments. You can't just make blanket statements like the scouts are in/not in.
What about the Congressional Globe?
We should just try each individual on our website here to see who you guys think should be in. It would be interesting.
Jon
|
|
|
|
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on Jun 24, 2011 16:03:16 GMT -5
Jon, The Whispering Blonde is the Government's lead attorney. She has a very soft voice (says it is a medical condition). Since she is facing Judge Lettow, he can hear her, but people in the court room sitting behind her cannot.
Read Section 9 of the February 16, 1863 Act. The Section reads (in part): "...to each individual of the before-named bands who exerted himself in rescuing the whites from the late massacre of said Indians." So, how do you interpret the Act to read that the Scouts "rescued" whites during the massacre? Seems to me they were quick to run to the soldiers and get their "30 pieces of Silver." I will await your reply.
|
|
|
|
Post by BIG JON on Jun 24, 2011 18:07:00 GMT -5
Jon, The Whispering Blonde is the Government's lead attorney. She has a very soft voice (says it is a medical condition). Since she is facing Judge Lettow, he can hear her, but people in the court room sitting behind her cannot.
I was wondering why you couldn't hear everything
-----------------------------------------------
"The history of the Indian revolt of August 6, 1862, Known as the Sioux Outbreak shows that these Indians were guilty of no wrong whatever. But so far from violating their treaty obligations in respect of peaceableness and friendship towards the whites, They voluntarily aided in suppressing the revolt and in rescuing the white women and children who had been taken captives by the hostile indians and enrolled themselves as scouts and soldiers, rendering meritorious service in the armies of the United States, guarding against the incursions of hostile indians...We are clearly of the opinion that the forfeitures declared by the act of Feb 16, 1863 should not have been extended to the class of indians named in the bill...The appropriation...should be made and paid to these indians without delay."
--R.F. Pettigrew 1890-Report of committees of the Senate of The United States, 51st congress-Report on Sisseton annuities forfeited by the 1863 act
----------------------------------------------------------
Next, I submit to you the Congressional Globe Jan 26, 1863-
...We humbly and respectfully ask that our great Father
take pity on us and do as he thinks best for our good. We
must have food and clothing, and In the spring somewhere
to live. Last spring our agent brought us a great many
plows and hoes and iron and other things, and we want that
he should pay for these things out of our money. We want
everything we owe paid.
We respectfully ask that our great Father appropriate our
annuity money, and that of those whom we represent, first,
to pay our debts created by our agent, Major Galbraith;
second, to pay damages; and last, to aid us in getting a
living. We are here at Fort Snelling, forty-one Lower
Sioux Indians, and twenty Upper Sioux Indians, and about
fifteen hundred women and children, and twenty half-breed
men. We know not what to do, and we submit ourselves
into the hands of our great Father...
-----------------------------------------------------
I will agree with you that not all scouts were scouts before the uprising. Being a scout in no way includes or discludes them, but many scouts acted in saving whites. (There are scouts on this list)
Apples are red
Apples are delicious
Are all red apples delicious?
Are all delicious apples red?
An indian is a scout.
Scouts are loyal
Are all indian scouts loyal?
Are all loyal indians scouts?
Hahahaha!!! Lol!
Ok, so what do you believe to be the criteria?
|
|
|
|
Post by atrocitymn on Jun 24, 2011 20:04:34 GMT -5
Jon, The Whispering Blonde is the Government's lead attorney. She has a very soft voice (says it is a medical condition). Since she is facing Judge Lettow, he can hear her, but people in the court room sitting behind her cannot. Read Section 9 of the February 16, 1863 Act. The Section reads (in part): "...to each individual of the before-named bands who exerted himself in rescuing the whites from the late massacre of said Indians." So, how do you interpret the Act to read that the Scouts "rescued" whites during the massacre? Seems to me they were quick to run to the soldiers and get their "30 pieces of Silver." I will await your reply. --- If kitto would read all the Plaintiff/Intervenor briefs submitted to the court and all the other attorneys of record he would find the answers in all the submissions by all the claimed lineal descendants that they all are direct lineal descendants of the four bands of Santee identified not only in Treaties with the U.S. but historical documents possessed by the United States government and other entities holding proof of ancestry. Kitto only thrashes back because he bows to EK's every whim. And Big Jon, you make excellent points in your discussions. Take care. atrocity.mn |
|
|
|
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on Jun 25, 2011 8:56:25 GMT -5
Big Jon, my answer is: All apples are red and delicious. Hold it. Well, maybe not the Granny Smith apples, wait, crab apples are not delicious, check that: After they are made into jelly and jam, with peanut butter and fry bread they are. I used to like apple butter, but I had to eat way to much to satisfy myself. I love it when the apple trees are in bloom, they are so pretty. When I was younger, I bobbed for red delicious apples at a Holloween party: nowadays I worry about the bacteria or viruses in the water so I refrain from that. When I go into the store to purchase apples, most of the apples presented for sale are wax coated and so darn green inside that they do not taste anything like the apples from King's or Green's orchards. (LOL) So the case can be made that after processing: All apples are red, delicious, and are all red.
Atro: "...all the claimed lineal descendants that they all are direct lineal descendants of the four bands of Santee." This is not pertinent to this discussion therefore not disputed. The Wolfchild case is about the decendants of individuals who rescued White people, again I urge you to read Section 9 of the Act of February 16, 1863. Unless you have a way of proving that a Scout saved White people, (perhaps he would then be classified as a Loyal Mdewakanton) you cannot read Scouts into that language, try as you might. Again, according to Judge Lettow there may be some "overlapping" of people on the Scout list, but I heard him say "Scouts are out" twice. Scouts as a classification do not qualify.
I say again, Scouts helped hunt and kill innocent Indians. You make a specious argument: Being loyal had nothing to do with being a Scout.
The "loyal" moniker was attached to the Mdewakantons "who rescued White people" in an effort to separate them from the "wild" Indians, I am still a Wild Indian. (I like the term "Wild." The word describes me very well.)
Here is another one for you Atro: All of the pleading prior to the May 13, 2010 hearing, had to do with trying to prove a Trust existed in the 3 appropriations Acts. The Supreme Court rejected that argument and upheld the Appeals Court's decision: There was no Trust created by the 3 appropriations Acts and if there was the 1980 Act abolished it. (My intrepretation.) The Wolfchild case became alive because Attorney Gary Montana insisted that the 1863 Act created the Trust. Gary was very eloquent in his presentation. So if you think that Gary Montana is a fan of Erik, then count me in, too.
As a result of Gary Montana's claim, Judge Lettow asked for clarification regarding the effect (if any) the 1863 Act has on this case.
I have tried to express to you that the Scouts are OUT and presented my reasons. Now we will wait for the Judge's decision. If you are right, you win a "cookie.
When I am proved right, I get to have a smug smile and get to type a big "I told you so" to you.
As usual, Pidamiya to all for responding to my posts, remaining calm, offering reasonable discussions on the topic.
CMK
|
|
|
|
Post by Curtis Kitto "MIKE" on Jun 25, 2011 9:09:41 GMT -5
Fixing a couple of typos: Holloween = Halloween; "cookie. = "cookie."
Big Jon: I will confidently assert that frybread, wild plum jelly, and peanut butter makes the best "PB&J" in the world. Your cousin, MIKE
|
|
